Author Topic: Classical Garden Series  (Read 1005 times)

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Re: Classical Garden Series
« Reply #44 on: April 24, 2019, 11:31:36 PM »
This the ultra low mintage end bid price. Range from rmb2000 to 2650 which is usd300 to 400.

This will go higher if the sponsor did not get the bad reputation in the community.

I guess this will show up in ebay with much higher price.












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Re: Classical Garden Series
« Reply #43 on: April 23, 2019, 06:06:48 PM »
Last week and this week more classical garden and panda expo show up in few China auction.

Some 10, 20 & 30 mintage been show up and ended with average and medium price.

This is a misfortunate for collectors who buy at extreme over-priced due to listen to the hype and lies of the others 2 English China coins forums.

It is a fortune if you are able to buy it Low due to the dump in china market and few westerners collectors have given up the series by cheap bidding in ebay in last few months.

Buying at right price and right time is an art not science.

Let see what the price will ended for today auction in china.
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Re: Classical Garden Series
« Reply #42 on: April 20, 2019, 04:20:52 AM »
Finally, I take my time to check my extra classical garden NGC set. Lan Ting, YuYuan and Summer Palace Long Coridoor NGC PF69.

List in ebay 399 which is 133 per piece. I were the same get it at high price around 150-180 pr pieces.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/264291291699



Can Private message me if anyone keen. 10% off from ebay price which is 359 for 3 pieces set of NGC PF69.
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Re: Classical Garden Series
« Reply #41 on: April 17, 2019, 07:15:59 PM »
LAN TING GARDEN worst the price at 550RMB@USD80 omp and RMB780@113 for NGC PF70.


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Re: Classical Garden Series
« Reply #40 on: April 17, 2019, 07:13:33 PM »
Another seldom show up item with Mintage 20 antique copper long corridor.

It cost RMB4480 @ USD649. COA is 19.













 
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Re: Classical Garden Series
« Reply #39 on: April 17, 2019, 07:05:28 PM »
Here the hyping XIE QI YUAN Mintage 99 set

Once this has hyped till 3,000 USD per set. Few american been chasing for it NGC PF70 at super high price due to the hyping of another american.

Now the price for the whole set is at RMB9600 which is USD1,391. If sellers say it is rare which demand 1 30% margin which the price shall not exist 2K in ebay. Let wait and see the ebay list price of this set of Xie with coa 97.




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Re: Classical Garden Series
« Reply #38 on: April 17, 2019, 06:38:53 PM »
Here the end bid result.

For price guidance which I use the following formula:-

1. end bid price with exchange rate RMB to USD
2. 4% paypal fee and 6% ebay store fee
3. 10 -15% seller margin
4. shipping fee from China to USA
5. Handling fee

YUAN MING YUAN


1 SILVER , 1 ANTIQUE SILVER AND 1 BRASS OMP.
Total 3 pieces at USD250. This means the silver should at 70, antique silver at 130, brass at 50. If I am not wrong majority ebay seller has double the price.

SUMMER PALACE
1 SILVER , 1 ANTIQUE SILVER AND 1 BRASS OMP.
Total 3 pieces at USD290. This means the silver should at 85, antique silver at 155, brass at 50. If I am not wrong majority ebay seller has double the price. If I am not wrong majority ebay seller has double the price too.

GE YUAN
1 SILVER NGC PF69, 1 ANTIQUE SILVER, 1 BRASS & Antique BRASS OMP.
Total 4 pieces at USD270. This means the silver should at 100, antique silver at 100, brass at 30, antiqiue brass 40. If I am not wrong majority ebay seller has double the price. If I am not wrong majority ebay seller has more double the price too.

I can offer a services to registered members here to help in bidding with above price if come across rather than just talk only. This to avoid others claim this price is not available for foreigner who reside outside china. However a deposit must pay for helping in bidding.














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Re: Classical Garden Series
« Reply #37 on: April 16, 2019, 09:26:40 PM »
Hoarders/resellers/sponsors start dumping Classical garden in China auction house again. This round is summer place and Lan Ting in OMP and NGC.

You can imagine which the mintage is less than 1500 silver with more than triple or even higher followers in China was quoted by coincompendium forum and China Mint forum. On top of it this serie is highly sought by overseas collectors. The mintage even lesser than 1500 for silver at later part. It is impossible NOT sold to individual collector fast and with a lot hoarders on this series by keep dumping to market within these 2 years. Lies which have not been exposes in english forum anyone BUT here.

I will post the photo of the auction to show you the quantity of it in auction. It is one auction house ONLY. Imagine there are more than 3 famous auction houses in china which excluding wechat auction and so on.

   

Here the auction which end today. Mainly on set instead of piece by piece except NGC graded.



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Re: Classical Garden Series
« Reply #36 on: April 16, 2019, 12:59:38 AM »
Here the Lan Ting Gold 100 g with 20 Mintage which also in auction house and will ended in 2 days with buy now price of USD11,600.

The fire sell of Histrorydog in ebay of the panda gold expo and classical garden remain unsold for majority. The price set is too high at softmarket. It take time to sell for sure.
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Re: Classical Garden Series
« Reply #35 on: April 15, 2019, 01:44:13 AM »
Hoarders/resellers/sponsors start dumping Classical garden in China auction house again. This round is summer place and Lan Ting in OMP and NGC.

You can imagine which the mintage is less than 1500 silver with more than triple or even higher followers in China was quoted by coincompendium forum and China Mint forum. On top of it this serie is highly sought by overseas collectors. The mintage even lesser than 1500 for silver at later part. It is impossible NOT sold to individual collector fast and with a lot hoarders on this series by keep dumping to market within these 2 years. Lies which have not been exposes in english forum anyone BUT here.

I will post the photo of the auction to show you the quantity of it in auction. It is one auction house ONLY. Imagine there are more than 3 famous auction houses in china which excluding wechat auction and so on.

   

 
www.numicconnection.com Here our webpage for all numic & other collectible items.

I am not affiliated to chinessemedals.com and Barsenault since May 2017. You will notice a soap opera and drama are happening.

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Re: Classical Garden Series
« Reply #34 on: February 11, 2019, 05:40:02 PM »
Does the 1985 Xinjiang Autonomy 5oz silver have 3 official versions now?    Please post photos....

Unfortunately, easy information by open mouth will not speed up the learning as my personal concept. So you need to source and work on it by yourself. Haha






The 1985 Xinjiang Autonomy silver medal 5 oz had low mint of about 1,400 per Mr Ge's book.      Most big silver medals were melted, no?    On Chinese Coin Forum a few years ago RAREMEDAL of China posted photos of a variety.      I trust RAREMEDALS'S opinion before i will trust your opinion Andrew.      I then looked at several 5 oz.    Rare Coin Collector had a PF 68 at the time.    I sent photos of it along w/ RAREMEDALS's 2 photos to NGC.    NGC said these look like 3 varieties.    It is in the NGC pipeline for varieties but this can take years.     I posted the photos again on CCF and asked if these are 3 varieties.    It was quickly shot down by SANDAC as frosting then i noticed my posts/photos were taken off CCF.     We do not determine varieties.    Varieties are determined by the experts at NGC and PCGS.        Time will tell if this silver has varieties, NGC will let us know....   does this make sense yet?

NGC, PCGS and other 3rd parties grading companies is well reputables BUT NOT GOD AND NOT ALL.

The LIKELY reason of CCF taken off the photo and remove your post might due to "concern of confusion that create by you." to others like here. Thus, I will do so. I am more lazy and even lesser endurance level like others so action been taken for dictators forum now.

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Re: Classical Garden Series
« Reply #33 on: February 11, 2019, 05:34:03 PM »
Recently discussed in private if it is possible for the Mint to restrike early year medals as they have the dies.    The answer is no.    New issue, low mint medals NIML can be restruck or restruck in other metals like the Classical Garden series that came out w/ gold/silver versions.   Then they restruck them in brass/copper?    This made collectors angry.   

You must not read carefully at most of the times. Members of CCF badon and another English forum do stated which official mints need to destroy OR/AND store the minting dies after certain years and they do not over minted as per planned mintage in coa in general. They might mint less than 0.0001% -2% more over planned mintage as sample, trial run and/or specimen. This happen in legal tender and non legal tender for china coins and even for Perth mint, canada mint and Royal British mint.

Minting with another metal with coa of classical garden is legitimate and do not consider cheating at all. However, this consider not good and lead to unhappiness of some collectors BUT some are pleased to get more varieties. Some panda lover love varieties BUT some hate it. None able to please everyone. This is golden rule of many things, democrat hate trump BUT trump love by his followers. common sense and simple logic which you should have it. Sword have 2 edges should not pick one side and not mention and think of the other sides.

Classical garden did restrike with newly coa and legitimate as mentioned early.  On top of it, at my knowledge classical garden did make an additional varieties of non PM and silver antique for the first one at later years and back dated it. Most important it is not fake BUT legitimate. The following thread show LEGITIMATE RESTRIKE are welcoming too and highly value like others. 


 





The people in the West that started the Chinese collecting craze at ground floor are what i call "early birds".      Early birds are like Nick Brown and his group, pandaamerica & their group, etc...       I was told that the restrikes of early year medals back then was a concern to the early birds too.     This has not happened w/ early year medals that i know of and the dies are about 40 yrs old now.     Some collectors still are concerned w/ restrikes today.      The restrikes of the Classical Garden was legal but still not acceptable to many collectors.    It has raised emotions of more medals being restruck which will probably not happen as the Mint has many artists and new designs.      I do not understand the culture of China or the Mint so have no clue.     The gold photo you posted is one awesome MCC....

Again just hersaid and no evidences. On top of it only select the part you like to hear and ignore all other dislike.

Nick Brown has passed away for long and pandaemerica founder have left the company. There are 2 major owners of pandaamerica one of them which is hard to find him nowaday. Another owner is busy with all the job which she is more on administration than coin focus person. Thus, a person passed away and another busy with the company not likely to comment on it. Their group, got know who the group. A SELF MAKE UP group by XXXX?

Since you not know not understand than not write like real and lead to confusion of others raise here.


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Re: Classical Garden Series
« Reply #32 on: February 11, 2019, 05:20:54 PM »
Andrew i enjoy your info but you do get a bit gun-ho.         We in the West are at a serious disadvantage as we do not read Chinese or speak it.      Most of my info comes from opinions on West forums, dealers in China and Chinese collectors living in the West.    It took a few years but i know who to contact to try to pry information from.      Many of these top collectors/dealers refuse to post on forums due to hyper critical comments.    We lose much precious info to online critical idiots.   
Pagodas are National Treasures in China, this is obvious.    The 1984 silver pagoda represents 4 of these pagodas.   Past practice of pump & dump w/ huge prices that fell has caused this disinterest.     I am looking at the future when demand goes up and supply is gone.   Bullion is ready to rumble too so when prices are up buyers jump in.   When prices are low, like now, the buyers avoid the market...why?     It would not take much demand for many of these rare medals to see a price increase.     I think there are several early year medals that represent National Treasures.     You are welcome to your opinion but so am I.   

You know even fully read and understood my message at all.

If you claim the 4 physical pagoda as China national treasure which are multi million of China national treasures and many it have minted in fiat and non fiat coin by official mints.

There are 200 set of pagoda as claimed by you which minimum 30% bought at the range of 6K to 25K and above as my deduction of it. 20-30% might be in bad condition and grade. 20% might be forgot and losses due to the collectors no longer collect and pass away which is basis computation for items more than 30 years. 20% might be in countries which do not read english and mandarin because it did distribute to USA and Japan initially. all those added up are 100%.

This means the floating available set for market with high grade are around most are 30-40% or much lower. Majority of them bought at peak price at average of 15K per set. It need up 6 times to breakeven. Those person bought at peak price highly probably will not sell it at loss because they have the money to hold. This deduction is correct because we seldom see any foreigners list pagoda set in ebay except JC8888 asking for 3 times higher than china market. It been unsold for few years in his listing if not wrong. ONLY those china dealers obtain from china market BUT sell at ebay with 60-90% higher than china market price. It also take long time to get buyer even the selling price is 4 - 5 times lower than the peak price. Common senses it does not attracted attention and interest. If not attract attention and interest which you assume it will back to good price like before. This is no sense at all. No logical brain can imagine like you and talk like you. You have been talking for years and years which never turn truth till now.

from 2012 till 2018 which is 7 years which the drop has non stop. The overpriced and manipulated artificial price as before which give low probability of breakeven and price pick up in near future. Each industry has cycle no exceptional for coin. CHina coins cycle range from 5 to 12 years. this might be even longer. This means it will need another few years to pick up as min basis. Plus it need floating items sell in ebay with transaction in order for price pick up. Those collectors will likely sell at 15.5K at breakeven because they have holding power and not sell at loss. This is consistent with the ebay which show little been listed and sold at few times lower than their peak purchase price except the china dealers as mentioned earlier. This means it create no condition and environment for price to pick up so easily not even say the median price of the peak. It still long way to go. Min 6 -20 years or more. There are so many opportunity to buy better and potential items to be more success instead of buying pagoda at ebay which is 60-90% of higher than current china market price. Artificial price again which none learn the past history lesson at all which might be they not read the forum or with others reasons. No sense to buy low probability of success item like pagoda set at 60-90% above china market price which available for westerner. China will not buy back from you which you loss one channel of selling. Ebay is available for you BUT you need to wait for a long period and it might not success at all. It is common sense to buy other potential items which are available in market than pagoda. 

 

   



   





Andrew;  You are looking a dollars and cents.    Past sales and present.     For me that is a low priority.    I always look for undiscovered or undervalued low mint medals that have potential in the future.     Always best for collectors to be ahead of the market.    1984 Silver Pagodas have 260 mint period.     Many dislike this medals due to silver pagoda debate on CCF years ago.    Many love this medal due to low prices/low mintage.     The bad name will go away when the market demand goes up but that will take time.     National Treasure may be the wrong word.   How about National Pride or NP?     Yes there are other pagodas but this one has gotten a lot of press due to debate and off the charts past price.     From my limited knowledge because i live in the West, this is the pagodas that i would collect....

Past, present and future are interrelated which you look at future ONLY.

With you limited Knowledge BUT tell like real and will happen which is all "?????" and conflict statement.

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Re: Classical Garden Series
« Reply #31 on: February 11, 2019, 06:25:27 AM »

You obviously do not like Feng Yunming at all.   I think he is a great artist and has made contributions to the MCC medal community.     Feng Yunming is admired by the top collectors in the East and West.     I will trust their opinion not yours on Feng.   You buy Feng Yunming medals don't you??    More people are coming on board to collect his medals.     

This not the first time you ask the same question again and again in public forum -  "You buy Feng Yunming medals don't you??"

I did purchased Feng Lu Xun medals at below market rate and low price in ASEAN and sell at higher price for margon as I am freelance sellers and NOT pure collector. What you try to prove?

I am stated the facts with logic, common sense and evidence than by just saying without proof. I cannot change your mindset which you have freewell BUT Half baked information and one side information is not good. I might set more rules in the forum since it own by me. I acknowledge this is dictator forum in members page.






Again, lets stop to think.    Mr Feng Yunming is a early artists w/ his Gold Horse Archaeological dated 1978.     Artists are detail conscious so chances are he remembers or has paperwork from early years.    Did he work w/ other early artists?   Many questions that can only be answered if he is interviewed.      Who else has valuable information about early years but those that helped to design or mint the medals?      A dealer in China told me more are aware of Feng Yunming now and collect his medals.    Why underestimate this early year artists?......   

pandamonium

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Re: Classical Garden Series
« Reply #30 on: February 11, 2019, 06:20:27 AM »
Does the 1985 Xinjiang Autonomy 5oz silver have 3 official versions now?    Please post photos....

Unfortunately, easy information by open mouth will not speed up the learning as my personal concept. So you need to source and work on it by yourself. Haha





The 1985 Xinjiang Autonomy silver medal 5 oz had low mint of about 1,400 per Mr Ge's book.      Most big silver medals were melted, no?    On Chinese Coin Forum a few years ago RAREMEDAL of China posted photos of a variety.      I trust RAREMEDALS'S opinion before i will trust your opinion Andrew.      I then looked at several 5 oz.    Rare Coin Collector had a PF 68 at the time.    I sent photos of it along w/ RAREMEDALS's 2 photos to NGC.    NGC said these look like 3 varieties.    It is in the NGC pipeline for varieties but this can take years.     I posted the photos again on CCF and asked if these are 3 varieties.    It was quickly shot down by SANDAC as frosting then i noticed my posts/photos were taken off CCF.     We do not determine varieties.    Varieties are determined by the experts at NGC and PCGS.        Time will tell if this silver has varieties, NGC will let us know....   does this make sense yet?   

pandamonium

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Re: Classical Garden Series
« Reply #29 on: February 11, 2019, 06:12:46 AM »
Recently discussed in private if it is possible for the Mint to restrike early year medals as they have the dies.    The answer is no.    New issue, low mint medals NIML can be restruck or restruck in other metals like the Classical Garden series that came out w/ gold/silver versions.   Then they restruck them in brass/copper?    This made collectors angry.   

You must not read carefully at most of the times. Members of CCF badon and another English forum do stated which official mints need to destroy OR/AND store the minting dies after certain years and they do not over minted as per planned mintage in coa in general. They might mint less than 0.0001% -2% more over planned mintage as sample, trial run and/or specimen. This happen in legal tender and non legal tender for china coins and even for Perth mint, canada mint and Royal British mint.

Minting with another metal with coa of classical garden is legitimate and do not consider cheating at all. However, this consider not good and lead to unhappiness of some collectors BUT some are pleased to get more varieties. Some panda lover love varieties BUT some hate it. None able to please everyone. This is golden rule of many things, democrat hate trump BUT trump love by his followers. common sense and simple logic which you should have it. Sword have 2 edges should not pick one side and not mention and think of the other sides.

Classical garden did restrike with newly coa and legitimate as mentioned early.  On top of it, at my knowledge classical garden did make an additional varieties of non PM and silver antique for the first one at later years and back dated it. Most important it is not fake BUT legitimate. The following thread show LEGITIMATE RESTRIKE are welcoming too and highly value like others. 


 




The people in the West that started the Chinese collecting craze at ground floor are what i call "early birds".      Early birds are like Nick Brown and his group, pandaamerica & their group, etc...       I was told that the restrikes of early year medals back then was a concern to the early birds too.     This has not happened w/ early year medals that i know of and the dies are about 40 yrs old now.     Some collectors still are concerned w/ restrikes today.      The restrikes of the Classical Garden was legal but still not acceptable to many collectors.    It has raised emotions of more medals being restruck which will probably not happen as the Mint has many artists and new designs.      I do not understand the culture of China or the Mint so have no clue.     The gold photo you posted is one awesome MCC....

pandamonium

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Re: Classical Garden Series
« Reply #28 on: February 11, 2019, 06:06:36 AM »
Andrew i enjoy your info but you do get a bit gun-ho.         We in the West are at a serious disadvantage as we do not read Chinese or speak it.      Most of my info comes from opinions on West forums, dealers in China and Chinese collectors living in the West.    It took a few years but i know who to contact to try to pry information from.      Many of these top collectors/dealers refuse to post on forums due to hyper critical comments.    We lose much precious info to online critical idiots.   
Pagodas are National Treasures in China, this is obvious.    The 1984 silver pagoda represents 4 of these pagodas.   Past practice of pump & dump w/ huge prices that fell has caused this disinterest.     I am looking at the future when demand goes up and supply is gone.   Bullion is ready to rumble too so when prices are up buyers jump in.   When prices are low, like now, the buyers avoid the market...why?     It would not take much demand for many of these rare medals to see a price increase.     I think there are several early year medals that represent National Treasures.     You are welcome to your opinion but so am I.   

You know even fully read and understood my message at all.

If you claim the 4 physical pagoda as China national treasure which are multi million of China national treasures and many it have minted in fiat and non fiat coin by official mints.

There are 200 set of pagoda as claimed by you which minimum 30% bought at the range of 6K to 25K and above as my deduction of it. 20-30% might be in bad condition and grade. 20% might be forgot and losses due to the collectors no longer collect and pass away which is basis computation for items more than 30 years. 20% might be in countries which do not read english and mandarin because it did distribute to USA and Japan initially. all those added up are 100%.

This means the floating available set for market with high grade are around most are 30-40% or much lower. Majority of them bought at peak price at average of 15K per set. It need up 6 times to breakeven. Those person bought at peak price highly probably will not sell it at loss because they have the money to hold. This deduction is correct because we seldom see any foreigners list pagoda set in ebay except JC8888 asking for 3 times higher than china market. It been unsold for few years in his listing if not wrong. ONLY those china dealers obtain from china market BUT sell at ebay with 60-90% higher than china market price. It also take long time to get buyer even the selling price is 4 - 5 times lower than the peak price. Common senses it does not attracted attention and interest. If not attract attention and interest which you assume it will back to good price like before. This is no sense at all. No logical brain can imagine like you and talk like you. You have been talking for years and years which never turn truth till now.

from 2012 till 2018 which is 7 years which the drop has non stop. The overpriced and manipulated artificial price as before which give low probability of breakeven and price pick up in near future. Each industry has cycle no exceptional for coin. CHina coins cycle range from 5 to 12 years. this might be even longer. This means it will need another few years to pick up as min basis. Plus it need floating items sell in ebay with transaction in order for price pick up. Those collectors will likely sell at 15.5K at breakeven because they have holding power and not sell at loss. This is consistent with the ebay which show little been listed and sold at few times lower than their peak purchase price except the china dealers as mentioned earlier. This means it create no condition and environment for price to pick up so easily not even say the median price of the peak. It still long way to go. Min 6 -20 years or more. There are so many opportunity to buy better and potential items to be more success instead of buying pagoda at ebay which is 60-90% of higher than current china market price. Artificial price again which none learn the past history lesson at all which might be they not read the forum or with others reasons. No sense to buy low probability of success item like pagoda set at 60-90% above china market price which available for westerner. China will not buy back from you which you loss one channel of selling. Ebay is available for you BUT you need to wait for a long period and it might not success at all. It is common sense to buy other potential items which are available in market than pagoda. 

 

   



   





Andrew;  You are looking a dollars and cents.    Past sales and present.     For me that is a low priority.    I always look for undiscovered or undervalued low mint medals that have potential in the future.     Always best for collectors to be ahead of the market.    1984 Silver Pagodas have 260 mint period.     Many dislike this medals due to silver pagoda debate on CCF years ago.    Many love this medal due to low prices/low mintage.     The bad name will go away when the market demand goes up but that will take time.     National Treasure may be the wrong word.   How about National Pride or NP?     Yes there are other pagodas but this one has gotten a lot of press due to debate and off the charts past price.     From my limited knowledge because i live in the West, this is the pagodas that i would collect....

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Re: Classical Garden Series
« Reply #27 on: February 09, 2019, 10:17:31 AM »
So the fact that private parties sponsored the Classical Garden series does not mean they can destroy the dies? 

Do mints not care that if people see that mints ignore mintage promises?  Wouldn't this situation also affect coins, some of which have very low mintages, and thus could bring in some money to the mint in the future should price appreciate significantly?  But then rarity in coins would also be utterly untrustworthy.  Odd.

All in all, why could Chinese consumers ever bother to pay attention to mintages, since no one in the know would believe the mints would resist make additional colns under the right circumstances?

Hard to understand why official mints would risk their reputations so readily.

I have put all facts and evident to show pandamonium statements not correct. It did raise my concern which confuse you, other readers and who do not know pandamonium. This is not the first and last he will do it even evidences and facts been showed.

I also address you concern of over minting in the thread too. Mints will not like to loss the reputation by earning few thousand dollars. They do not short of the money which China Government are rich enough. As you also acknowledge which is "odd" the official Mint will seriously overminted the planned mintage as stated in coa. However, pandamonium is not realise it as when topic touching early medals and Feng items. He did not do it intentionally if I am not wrong. However, everyone got his blind spot. Someone might see it quickly BUT someone might not see it till his last day in the earth.

   
 

 

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Re: Classical Garden Series
« Reply #26 on: February 09, 2019, 10:07:07 AM »
Like Mr Sun's book on circ coins, etc...the entire market changed and prices did too.     We need a publication on Feng Yunming.      We are all allowed our opinions, are we not?      Your opinion will change too as this market matures and more info comes forward....

Check Mr Sun financial status BEFORE & AFTER carrying out a series of hard works and activities of promoting circulating coins in China and overseas in recent year. He financial status at least when triple or even more after several year of hardworks.

You been asking around and keep email A B C D in eastern and western people to interview Feng for several years BUT never success. Who will work for free ? Sun Ke Qian work for free for the circulating coin haha. You can work on it for another few years and getting someone to interview Feng. Someone must be influential and powerful enough to affect the coin industry and work for free. Yoiu can celebrate the 10 years anniversary of it soon too.


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Re: Classical Garden Series
« Reply #25 on: February 09, 2019, 09:59:30 AM »

You obviously do not like Feng Yunming at all.   I think he is a great artist and has made contributions to the MCC medal community.     Feng Yunming is admired by the top collectors in the East and West.     I will trust their opinion not yours on Feng.   You buy Feng Yunming medals don't you??    More people are coming on board to collect his medals.     

This not the first time you ask the same question again and again in public forum -  "You buy Feng Yunming medals don't you??"

I did purchased Feng Lu Xun medals at below market rate and low price in ASEAN and sell at higher price for margon as I am freelance sellers and NOT pure collector. What you try to prove?

I am stated the facts with logic, common sense and evidence than by just saying without proof. I cannot change your mindset which you have freewell BUT Half baked information and one side information is not good. I might set more rules in the forum since it own by me. I acknowledge this is dictator forum in members page. 


 

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Re: Classical Garden Series
« Reply #24 on: February 09, 2019, 09:50:44 AM »
Does the 1985 Xinjiang Autonomy 5oz silver have 3 official versions now?    Please post photos....

Unfortunately, easy information by open mouth will not speed up the learning as my personal concept. So you need to source and work on it by yourself. Haha

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Re: Classical Garden Series
« Reply #23 on: February 09, 2019, 09:47:58 AM »
Recently discussed in private if it is possible for the Mint to restrike early year medals as they have the dies.    The answer is no.    New issue, low mint medals NIML can be restruck or restruck in other metals like the Classical Garden series that came out w/ gold/silver versions.   Then they restruck them in brass/copper?    This made collectors angry.   

I do not own any Great Wall due to past posts that they too were restruck like you said...

The above 2 statements by you are conflicting each others. 

One statement say as discussed privately which early years medals are unable to restrike.

The second statement which you agree early years medal "Greatwall" are able to restrike.

Article as post earlier also proven legal tender can restrike after 20 over years. Why not china Mints which did keep the mintage dies in store. and even in their private muzuem.

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Re: Classical Garden Series
« Reply #22 on: February 09, 2019, 09:32:33 AM »
Take a pleasure reading from one of the famous coin webpage that "Restrikes might not be ‘originals,’ but collectors love these oddities anyway Four coins in January Heritage auction have interesting backgrounds." As mentioned NOT all unhappy of restrikes which they are some happy and willing to pay high price.

Retrikes legal tender coins is legitimate by government mint/official Mint BUT it can be identified. is that as you statement which  "Recently discussed in private if it is possible for the Mint to restrike early year medals as they have the dies.    The answer is no.    New issue, low mint medals NIML can be restruck or restruck in other metals like the Classical Garden series that came out w/ gold/silver versions.   Then they restruck them in brass/copper?    This made collectors angry."

TAKE NOTES IT IS NOT APPLY TO CHINA OFFICIAL MINT ONLY AND NOT FOR NIML AS YOUR STATEMENT. The classical garden restrike in brass/copper with coa and same mint is not fake and much more easier identify than restrike in same metal as stated in the early post and URL.

On top of it that coins can restrike even more than 20 plus year or longer as happen as stated in the article:-

 https://www.texmetals.com/news/restrike-coins/

Thus, your statement of ONLY NIML can restruck BUT not the early year medals.

RESTRIKE APPLY to WESTERN and EASTERN MINT and BOTH FIAT (LEGAL TENDER) & NON FIAT (NON LEGAL TENDER AKA MEDAL) REGARDLESS ARE REALY YEARS OR NEW.  IT CAN BE VALUEABLE AS PROVEN IN THE AUCTION HOUSE TOO. IT IS ON CASE TO CASE BASIS RATHER THAN ONE SIDE THINKING   

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Re: Classical Garden Series
« Reply #21 on: February 09, 2019, 09:09:55 AM »
Recently discussed in private if it is possible for the Mint to restrike early year medals as they have the dies.    The answer is no.    New issue, low mint medals NIML can be restruck or restruck in other metals like the Classical Garden series that came out w/ gold/silver versions.   Then they restruck them in brass/copper?    This made collectors angry.   

I can Gun-ho for sure because I own the forum and stated clearly I am dictator and I have the right information rather than rumour and hersay only without evidences.

Just a simple click of google search engine which restrike definition will show up.

One of the article :-

Restrike Coins
One of the most misunderstood terms in numismatics is the word “restrike.” In its strictest sense, a restrike is a coin made from original dies at a later year. However, the word is used for a wide variety of other reproductions, copies, recreations and later issues. This article will describe the various types of restrikes and how they are perceived by the numismatic marketplace.
While many coins are called restrikes, very few pieces fit the official definition. This is because most mints destroyed or dramatically altered original coinage dies; they almost never survived after their year of issue. One notable exception was an 1804 Large Cent die accidentally discarded by the U.S. Mint. It was somehow found at a much later date, perhaps in the 1850s or 1860s. This obverse die was “muled” with an 1820s-era reverse die, from with a run of restrikes were made. These coins look nothing like original 1804 Large Cents, as 1) the reverse design is from the wrong era 2) the dies had rusted and cracked badly and 3) the restrikes tend to be in high grade whereas original 1804 Large Cents are often well-worn.

In a few unusual cases, the U.S. Mint created coins at a later date that did not exist in the first place. The most famous instance is the legendary 1804 Silver Dollar. Official U.S. Mint records show that one dollar silver coins were made in 1804, but these coins were almost certainly dated 1803. In the 1830s, the U.S. Mint decided to assemble a proof set as a gift. They wanted to include a Silver Dollar in the proof set, but the coin had not been officially produced since 1804. So, the Philadelphia Mint simply created a new set of Silver Dollar dies dated 1804. Eight coins were made in the 1830s, then another seven were struck in the 1850s and 1860s. These “1804” Dollars are now major rarities with each worth seven figures each!

On the opposite end of the spectrum, there are seemingly endless items called “restrikes” with little or no numismatic value. This includes copies, reproductions, and other non-official re-creations. Technically the work restrike does not apply. However, all too often, the term is used by dealers and marketers to lend value and legitimacy to these reproductions. This category of “restrikes” should also not be confused with counterfeits, which are produced for fraudulent and nefarious purposes.

https://www.texmetals.com/news/restrike-coins/

Generally Minting dies are not store in class 10 clean house haha. It not even store at clean house and humid control room for China official mint as my understanding.

As explained by the article which minting dies easy to get rust and need repair if need restrike. on top of it which the restrike coin will grade badly. This do not happen in classical garden gold as you wrote at all. FAKE news as say by trump all times.

Here the gold and silver Lan Ting classical garden which both are not restrike BUT mint in 2013 . It have high grade and minting in 2013 as coa and graded by 3rd party grading company NGC. 




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Re: Classical Garden Series
« Reply #20 on: February 09, 2019, 08:35:15 AM »
Recently discussed in private if it is possible for the Mint to restrike early year medals as they have the dies.    The answer is no.    New issue, low mint medals NIML can be restruck or restruck in other metals like the Classical Garden series that came out w/ gold/silver versions.   Then they restruck them in brass/copper?    This made collectors angry.   

You must not read carefully at most of the times. Members of CCF badon and another English forum do stated which official mints need to destroy OR/AND store the minting dies after certain years and they do not over minted as per planned mintage in coa in general. They might mint less than 0.0001% -2% more over planned mintage as sample, trial run and/or specimen. This happen in legal tender and non legal tender for china coins and even for Perth mint, canada mint and Royal British mint.

Minting with another metal with coa of classical garden is legitimate and do not consider cheating at all. However, this consider not good and lead to unhappiness of some collectors BUT some are pleased to get more varieties. Some panda lover love varieties BUT some hate it. None able to please everyone. This is golden rule of many things, democrat hate trump BUT trump love by his followers. common sense and simple logic which you should have it. Sword have 2 edges should not pick one side and not mention and think of the other sides.

Classical garden did restrike with newly coa and legitimate as mentioned early.  On top of it, at my knowledge classical garden did make an additional varieties of non PM and silver antique for the first one at later years and back dated it. Most important it is not fake BUT legitimate. The following thread show LEGITIMATE RESTRIKE are welcoming too and highly value like others. 


   

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Re: Classical Garden Series
« Reply #19 on: February 09, 2019, 07:38:45 AM »
Andrew i enjoy your info but you do get a bit gun-ho.         We in the West are at a serious disadvantage as we do not read Chinese or speak it.      Most of my info comes from opinions on West forums, dealers in China and Chinese collectors living in the West.    It took a few years but i know who to contact to try to pry information from.      Many of these top collectors/dealers refuse to post on forums due to hyper critical comments.    We lose much precious info to online critical idiots.   
Pagodas are National Treasures in China, this is obvious.    The 1984 silver pagoda represents 4 of these pagodas.   Past practice of pump & dump w/ huge prices that fell has caused this disinterest.     I am looking at the future when demand goes up and supply is gone.   Bullion is ready to rumble too so when prices are up buyers jump in.   When prices are low, like now, the buyers avoid the market...why?     It would not take much demand for many of these rare medals to see a price increase.     I think there are several early year medals that represent National Treasures.     You are welcome to your opinion but so am I.   

You know even fully read and understood my message at all.

If you claim the 4 physical pagoda as China national treasure which are multi million of China national treasures and many it have minted in fiat and non fiat coin by official mints.

There are 200 set of pagoda as claimed by you which minimum 30% bought at the range of 6K to 25K and above as my deduction of it. 20-30% might be in bad condition and grade. 20% might be forgot and losses due to the collectors no longer collect and pass away which is basis computation for items more than 30 years. 20% might be in countries which do not read english and mandarin because it did distribute to USA and Japan initially. all those added up are 100%.

This means the floating available set for market with high grade are around most are 30-40% or much lower. Majority of them bought at peak price at average of 15K per set. It need up 6 times to breakeven. Those person bought at peak price highly probably will not sell it at loss because they have the money to hold. This deduction is correct because we seldom see any foreigners list pagoda set in ebay except JC8888 asking for 3 times higher than china market. It been unsold for few years in his listing if not wrong. ONLY those china dealers obtain from china market BUT sell at ebay with 60-90% higher than china market price. It also take long time to get buyer even the selling price is 4 - 5 times lower than the peak price. Common senses it does not attracted attention and interest. If not attract attention and interest which you assume it will back to good price like before. This is no sense at all. No logical brain can imagine like you and talk like you. You have been talking for years and years which never turn truth till now.

from 2012 till 2018 which is 7 years which the drop has non stop. The overpriced and manipulated artificial price as before which give low probability of breakeven and price pick up in near future. Each industry has cycle no exceptional for coin. CHina coins cycle range from 5 to 12 years. this might be even longer. This means it will need another few years to pick up as min basis. Plus it need floating items sell in ebay with transaction in order for price pick up. Those collectors will likely sell at 15.5K at breakeven because they have holding power and not sell at loss. This is consistent with the ebay which show little been listed and sold at few times lower than their peak purchase price except the china dealers as mentioned earlier. This means it create no condition and environment for price to pick up so easily not even say the median price of the peak. It still long way to go. Min 6 -20 years or more. There are so many opportunity to buy better and potential items to be more success instead of buying pagoda at ebay which is 60-90% of higher than current china market price. Artificial price again which none learn the past history lesson at all which might be they not read the forum or with others reasons. No sense to buy low probability of success item like pagoda set at 60-90% above china market price which available for westerner. China will not buy back from you which you loss one channel of selling. Ebay is available for you BUT you need to wait for a long period and it might not success at all. It is common sense to buy other potential items which are available in market than pagoda. 

 

   



   

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Re: Classical Garden Series
« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2019, 06:45:37 AM »
So the fact that private parties sponsored the Classical Garden series does not mean they can destroy the dies? 

Do mints not care that if people see that mints ignore mintage promises?  Wouldn't this situation also affect coins, some of which have very low mintages, and thus could bring in some money to the mint in the future should price appreciate significantly?  But then rarity in coins would also be utterly untrustworthy.  Odd.

All in all, why could Chinese consumers ever bother to pay attention to mintages, since no one in the know would believe the mints would resist make additional colns under the right circumstances?

Hard to understand why official mints would risk their reputations so readily. 

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Re: Classical Garden Series
« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2019, 06:13:44 AM »
Andrew i enjoy your info but you do get a bit gun-ho.         We in the West are at a serious disadvantage as we do not read Chinese or speak it.      Most of my info comes from opinions on West forums, dealers in China and Chinese collectors living in the West.    It took a few years but i know who to contact to try to pry information from.      Many of these top collectors/dealers refuse to post on forums due to hyper critical comments.    We lose much precious info to online critical idiots.   
Pagodas are National Treasures in China, this is obvious.    The 1984 silver pagoda represents 4 of these pagodas.   Past practice of pump & dump w/ huge prices that fell has caused this disinterest.     I am looking at the future when demand goes up and supply is gone.   Bullion is ready to rumble too so when prices are up buyers jump in.   When prices are low, like now, the buyers avoid the market...why?     It would not take much demand for many of these rare medals to see a price increase.     I think there are several early year medals that represent National Treasures.     You are welcome to your opinion but so am I.   Recently discussed in private if it is possible for the Mint to restrike early year medals as they have the dies.    The answer is no.    New issue, low mint medals NIML can be restruck or restruck in other metals like the Classical Garden series that came out w/ gold/silver versions.   Then they restruck them in brass/copper?    This made collectors angry.   
I do not own any Great Wall due to past posts that they too were restruck like you said...
Does the 1985 Xinjiang Autonomy 5oz silver have 3 official versions now?    Please post photos....
You obviously do not like Feng Yunming at all.   I think he is a great artist and has made contributions to the MCC medal community.     Feng Yunming is admired by the top collectors in the East and West.     I will trust their opinion not yours on Feng.   You buy Feng Yunming medals don't you??    More people are coming on board to collect his medals.     A West dealer told me buy anything 1979 as they will all go up.     This market only changes when we have a publication.     Like Mr Sun's book on circ coins, etc...the entire market changed and prices did too.     We need a publication on Feng Yunming.      We are all allowed our opinions, are we not?      Your opinion will change too as this market matures and more info comes forward....
Photo of medal book?...

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Re: Classical Garden Series
« Reply #16 on: February 08, 2019, 08:45:53 AM »
From what i read there is deception w/ mostly new issue, low mint medals or NILM.      That is why i always post about early issue low mint medals.    There are no restrikes w/ many early issue.    Go heavy on early issue and light on NILM.....
Lets see what Andrew posts....

In others way which I can say there are many deception w/ mostly early issue which pagoda is a typical scam. It worth to collected but not 25 K during the peak price and the period. Rarely any China legal tender (fiat coin) and non legal tender (no fiat coin aka medals) coins price drop so significantly as I known. I have challenge badon in CCF about this matter. He did post some fiat coins which did drop as significant as pagoda. However, it is not true which I proven with major sold transactions of the particular fiat coin quote by him did not drop so significant as pagoda silver set. PAGODA SET is worth to collect BUT not at so high price.

Every industry have theft and bad influence which is no exception for new issue and old issue non fiat coin aka medal. This also happen in fiat coins both western and eastern. Thus , homework, homework and homework and not just listen to anyone. Listen to yourself and blame none BUT yourself if wrong purchase decision. It is very easy to blame others and vent it publicly or privately BUT they will not suffer BUT yourself. We are human being which has brain to think and making decision which other do not use gun to force you to buy it. The most is they emotional affect you which you are unable to resist the temptation. I did suffer from the learning curve and still pay tuition fee for the coin purchase decision. However, I still enjoy it.



   

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Re: Classical Garden Series
« Reply #15 on: February 08, 2019, 08:27:50 AM »
I do not collect NILM medals or new issue, low mint.       Many top dealers and collectors in China and West told me years ago what to focus on.    The general knowledge not specifics.    It was up to me to research and learn which i enjoy doing.    In the past i have posted about several early year low mint medals.   I post to learn and some are winners, others were laughable.   That is OK, as i have the drive to continue to learn...

1984  3.3  Great Wall silver  68 mint
1985  Great Wall silver      500 mint
1984  Silver Pagoda 4 pc set.    China Mint says 260 mint total even when others say 1,000.   How do you change China Mint's opinion on this?    You do not..   It is 260 mint and represents China National Treasures the Pagodas.
1985  Palace Museum silver  w/ 200 mint.    NGC has 33 total pop.   Represents a National Treasure the Forbidden City/Palace Museum..
ALL  Lu Xun medals early year as NGC article says Lu Xun is National Treasure..
1985  Gold Vault Protector 1/10   1,500 mint    affordable & 2nd in line.
1982  Gold Vault Protector  10 oz  100 mint    Very high price and have not seen one in years...
1984  Silver Gold Fish
1984  Brass Gold Fish
1987  Silver Vault Protector 5 oz   999 mint
1990  Hong Kong Scenery  Bay View & Ariel View  2 pc silver set   very rare, mintage unknown due to Tianamen Square.    Utah has set for sale.    Largest dealer in China told me a few years ago this is one of rarest on market.    It too is ignored for now..
1980  Jianzhen silver  4 pc set     300 mint
1985  Xinjian Autonomy  5 oz silver medal.    The 1 oz silver Coin is very popular.    It was posted this big silver has varieties.   I sent photos to NGC and they said 3 possible varieties, it is on their study list.     Posted that on CCF years ago and they removed my post/photos because it is frosting not variety in their opinion.    NGC will decide...
1984 - 1989  Hong Kong Expo silver panda medals.    1st yr of 5 oz and 1st yr of 12 oz silver pandas.   Official panda issue w/ low mint..
1979 to 81  Feng Yunming medals.    gold, silver, gilt brass, aluminum, etc...   "Feng Yunming and early semi official medals" is all the research we have.    He is called the Grandfather of medals but no one wants to interview or understand his early year knowledge which i think is very valuable...

There are a few others i cannot recall at this time.    There is a core group of expert collectors of Feng Yunming.     There is also a group of collectors for medals not coins.     I understand Coins are hero's and medals are worthless to some but not to all.   In time medals will move up on the collection list but today it is still coins.      Collect both coins/medals all early year as they have huge potential....

It is a process and fun of researching and learning. However, it is a pain in assh and realise after many years of learning and research which many of it are wrong. It is worst and not able to admit it is wrong even been proven because my so call experts say it is correct and I believe it is correct. It can be a fortune and not fortune.

As your list of the medals issues which from 1979 to 1990 from private and official mints. Are you define those years minted medals as early issue? I assume yes.

You have miss out many of the information been ask "mints, designers, diameter of the medals, varieties of the medals, Minting objectives like for celebrating certain person or event, any restrike and years of restrike and current market price. In facts you able to provide the 3 information ONLY :- year of minting, metals, & mintage which all other unanswer. Those information is very basis if you are really into it. However, it is a good start and try of your learning. You need spent more time in checking and obtain thosed basis information. A medals books by one of the famous Shanghai Mint non precious medal collector Mr Ying which cost around USD120 -150 which consider one of the best tools in medals collection. I did make a vidoe on utube and post in ccf badon long ago. It is 4 kilo in weight which book is cheap BUT shipping fee is higher than the book. There is one medal minted to honor of his contribution to the society. Probably, your so call expert in the east and west can borrow you the book for reference if you are not buying it. 90% of the book are photo and the information are standard like year, designer, mint of minting, diameter of the medal and the recommended price (price are outdated). Take note the book not even inclusive of many private mint outside of shanghai and other official mints. 

You have listed 2 Greatwall which is silver in medals. In facts there are 21 Greatwall medals been Minted from 1980-1990 by Shanghai mint alone in non-precious metals and among them with varieties too. There are around 5-6 Greatwall design been used. Those are 60mm or above in diameter. This means the same design have been used more than one times for different occasion by same mint. This consider restrike or not which is very grey and arguable. Your experts shall tell you those basis information. However, I do not think they did it.

Pagoda silver has few varieties which in gold gilded, brass, silver and silver plated. It have many types of generic boxes of it. The so call coa is printed for Japan distributors. I do not did much research on it like you BUT seem I know it more. WHY IT BECOME CHINA NATIONAL TREASURES !!!! because it hype by few person and chase by sucker in USA which lead the price jack till 25K USD for a set of 4 pc silver pagoda? It worth less than 2.5K  for a 4 pc set of NGC PF69 in china from transaction 2014-2018. I did post those evidence in CCF badon and consider this as scam. You might argue that the heated discussion of another forum dispute with Badon lead the significant price drop. Yes, I agree BUT this limited to market in english speaking countries like USA ONLY NOT to other market because majority of china medal collector speak poor english and no english. Take note the drop in price of non fiat coin aka medal is not all. Certain china coins also suffer significant drop of price range from 5% to 60%. This also happen in western coins if I am not wrong even I do not own a lot of it. Take example the fiat coin dragon and phoenix 1 oz silver bullion coin by Perth Mint have hyped to 100USD per piece during the peak price which just less than 1 1/2 years which price has dropped to around USD55 in ebay sold transactions. It even lower in some english trade platform. Thus, The bullshit of another english forum which legal tender is a safer investment and medal aka non fiat is junk and no investment value that is fake information. They do not tell the full information and selective information are cited in the forum.

Lu Xun is national treasure BUT not all his medals sold well. 1985 Xinjiang 5 oz silver has more than 3 varieties BUT 3 recognised by NGC ONLY.

You have been trying many years of active promoting Feng Yuming medals as "Grandfather of medals and early semi official medals". Medals non fiat coins are minted and used as trade barter in China ancient time. This tell Feng is not that OLD haha. China has minted medals since ancient time till now. How can be Feng as Grandfather of medals !!!!. Medals exist during the emperor time and continue during Republican of china coinage 1912-1949 and continue after Communist take over china administration from Sept 1949. Feng starts his first medal during China economic open up policy in late 1979 for earning foreign currency and reserve if not wrong which lead to few westerners wrong perception of claiming his as the "Grandfather of medals and early semi official medals." Chinese local does not know him much and claim him as "Grandfather of medals" as quoted by you. Shanghai Mint did issue some medals in early 1979 which was well before Feng medals as quoted by you. It is official and design by Greatwall medal designer too. The beauty is there are plenty of tourist medals and festive medals for local minted by official and private mints well before Feng. I am really concern and questioning your so call westerner and eastern experts information to you.

As when from hersaid ONLY and no proven evidences showed which I will NOT take the information seriously. 

 
 






pandamonium

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Re: Classical Garden Series
« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2019, 06:26:46 AM »
1990 HK  Ariel View/HK View  is a Special Admin Region 2 pc silver set.     1997 is thought to be 1st yr but it is 1990 & this medal.    Is the Admin Region important?     Do the research on this one Andrew.    I do not read or speak Chinese so am at a disadvantage but why should that stop me?
The experts say when the market takes off & matures then the early years will be very expensive and i believe them.    Could it eventually become a bidding war?     The new issue or NILM will also have a collector base, mostly newbies.     In the future mature market the early years will have no comparison to NILM.    Many that sell NILM are collecting early issue quietly behind the scenes.    Research is not easy for West collectors but enough info is out for them to make a good choice now while prices are dirt cheap....

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Re: Classical Garden Series
« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2019, 06:09:09 AM »
I do not collect NILM medals or new issue, low mint.       Many top dealers and collectors in China and West told me years ago what to focus on.    The general knowledge not specifics.    It was up to me to research and learn which i enjoy doing.    In the past i have posted about several early year low mint medals.   I post to learn and some are winners, others were laughable.   That is OK, as i have the drive to continue to learn...

1984  3.3  Great Wall silver  68 mint
1985  Great Wall silver      500 mint
1984  Silver Pagoda 4 pc set.    China Mint says 260 mint total even when others say 1,000.   How do you change China Mint's opinion on this?    You do not..   It is 260 mint and represents China National Treasures the Pagodas.
1985  Palace Museum silver  w/ 200 mint.    NGC has 33 total pop.   Represents a National Treasure the Forbidden City/Palace Museum..
ALL  Lu Xun medals early year as NGC article says Lu Xun is National Treasure..
1985  Gold Vault Protector 1/10   1,500 mint    affordable & 2nd in line.
1982  Gold Vault Protector  10 oz  100 mint    Very high price and have not seen one in years...
1984  Silver Gold Fish
1984  Brass Gold Fish
1987  Silver Vault Protector 5 oz   999 mint
1990  Hong Kong Scenery  Bay View & Ariel View  2 pc silver set   very rare, mintage unknown due to Tianamen Square.    Utah has set for sale.    Largest dealer in China told me a few years ago this is one of rarest on market.    It too is ignored for now..
1980  Jianzhen silver  4 pc set     300 mint
1985  Xinjian Autonomy  5 oz silver medal.    The 1 oz silver Coin is very popular.    It was posted this big silver has varieties.   I sent photos to NGC and they said 3 possible varieties, it is on their study list.     Posted that on CCF years ago and they removed my post/photos because it is frosting not variety in their opinion.    NGC will decide...
1984 - 1989  Hong Kong Expo silver panda medals.    1st yr of 5 oz and 1st yr of 12 oz silver pandas.   Official panda issue w/ low mint..
1979 to 81  Feng Yunming medals.    gold, silver, gilt brass, aluminum, etc...   "Feng Yunming and early semi official medals" is all the research we have.    He is called the Grandfather of medals but no one wants to interview or understand his early year knowledge which i think is very valuable...

There are a few others i cannot recall at this time.    There is a core group of expert collectors of Feng Yunming.     There is also a group of collectors for medals not coins.     I understand Coins are hero's and medals are worthless to some but not to all.   In time medals will move up on the collection list but today it is still coins.      Collect both coins/medals all early year as they have huge potential....

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Re: Classical Garden Series
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2019, 07:23:50 PM »
Yes, of course you are correct: no one is forcing anyone to buy anything.  Someone may try to deceive, but if the buyer is informed, the deception will not work. 

So given the spread of knowledge from China to the US-- that classical garden medals sell for much less in China than on eBay-- do you believe the market is stalled?  Do you believe there are still holders of large numbers of medals in China who intend to dump their medals if and when prices go up again?

Price for a 2 oz silver medals which sell at USD58 omp which is USD29 per oz (84 % of spot). The maximum is 1500 or 1,200 mintage for the first silver medal of the series which is not 60,000 or 100,000 mintage medal and legal tender on the electronic exchange for gambling and speculation that have been crub by China government in last 2 -3 years ago. Thus, I do not believe it will drop much further than USD58 per pieces. I am not sure who get burn most in china and still holding a lot to off load to market in near future or anyone get it at spot or spot plus. However, I did see on and off someone are selling it at china auction houses. The offloaded also inclusive of the panda expo series which run by same group of sponsor of classical garden. However the panda expo price is not as bad as the classical garden. Take note classical garden mintage has reduce significantly after the summer palace resort. They have offloaded those in china auction house few months ago. I do not believe it has a lot leftover except it is really sell less than 30% to market and 70% unsold after the few round of offloading in china market.

In fact, I will sell few omp and NGC graded of classical garden which are extra of my collection in ebay soon. 
 

 

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Re: Classical Garden Series
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2019, 07:07:38 PM »
@pandamonium

How you define early issue and new low mintage medals? What mintage is low ?

Please states 10 low mintage old medals in details (i.e. mints, designers, metals, diameter of the medals, varieties of the medals, years of minting, Mintage of each varieties, Minting objectives like for celebrating certain person or event, any restrike and years of restrike, current market price and etc)

How much you know of early issue medals? Give detail examples

How much you know of new medals? Give detail examples

I do collect legal and non legal tender coins (1970s' to now). I choose the coins with potential appreciation in future BUT no all bet are realised , things I like with my financial ability even with low potential appreciation in future, price stability items, series commission by sponsor that I trust with no bad record, 60 mm newly issue medals that use vase heating technique by private mint which is environmental unfriendly and etc. This allow me to diversify which is important. I have mix of precious and non precious metals. I have bullion and numic.

I buy early issue medals as when I know more about it else I will keep away because too many dispute and discussion which hard to tell the truth and fake news. However, if it is below my acceptable price and I like it much which I will buy on it. I like greatwall much. Thus, I always buy with emotion even my logic tell me it is too good to be truth and there will be more will show up in China market with lower price.

Legal tender and non legal tender for early issue have been long in the market which the hidden gems are hard to find because it has been almost value to the top which is differ with new issue items. This is common sense and logic as long as the price is not artificially push up by market. Thus, you must know which price is artificially been pushing up and which is not. Monitor it for a certain periods which you will know it. Do a stress test of the coins in soft market !!!! will the overall coins price stable and maintain, coin price not down significantly in soft market, the continuity of the series, any sudden sale of more than 15% of the total mintage of the medals (this % not apply to high mintage legal tender and all cases) show up within 1 months & etc.

The last 2 years which I have purchased the 1980 -1990 legal tender coins which price has dropped ranging from 20% -70%. I think this is good opportunity to go in because I did miss the boat before 2010 which I yet to start collecting coin in fast speed. As non legal tender which I did purchase some BUT mostly about theme like Greatwall, brass Lunar, China autonomy province theme items and some special item I like.

I also get in gold panda which close to spot.

All above are china. I also get into North Korea coins BUT market price is damn shit now. Thus, I get in more to leverage down my cost and price.       

       



 

   

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Re: Classical Garden Series
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2019, 06:31:04 PM »
Yes, of course you are correct: no one is forcing anyone to buy anything.  Someone may try to deceive, but if the buyer is informed, the deception will not work. 

So given the spread of knowledge from China to the US-- that classical garden medals sell for much less in China than on eBay-- do you believe the market is stalled?  Do you believe there are still holders of large numbers of medals in China who intend to dump their medals if and when prices go up again? 


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Re: Classical Garden Series
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2019, 05:47:17 PM »
@vasa,

it is free market that sellers have right and freedom to price their item high or low and no moral & legal obligation to price item close to cost price. This apply to buyers too which they can freely decide to buy or not buy with particular seller with states price.

I do not view those ebay sellers of classical garden series medals are intentionally deceiving buyers in the US which they have the right to sell at their desire price in ebay and buyers have the right to buy it or not buy it. However, if majority or even all ebay sellers sell at almost same price which the real pricing and situation in China are not reflecting in ebay( foreigner buyer other than China local).

Numic community is very tricky like other art collection. Transparency are not there. There are many disadvantages for foreigners who read english only. Thus, the sources of information has been limited and many english forum of china coins (fiat or/and non fiat) do not provide full information but choose and pick information at their like and advantages intentionally and/or unintentionally.

Some foreigners treat some dealers information as real which in turn they get used by dealers. I have been in this shit during my early collection stage. Probably some even dare not admit it and still not wake up yet.

From the incident, I remind myself the following:-

=> research, research & research from all possible sources if the item above USD1K (you limit might be higher or lower than me due to individual). Ensure those sources sing the same song and even ask around the trusted sources.

=> homework, homework & homework by checking all sources and observe a while before purchasing decision if the items are high value and no urgency to buy it now.

=> Trust noone BUT yourself if you are new to the collection. Slowly you will pick up the more trusted sources and people. However, not be lazy still research and do homework.

=> follow mint, designer, sponsor and/or others etc. This is the same concept like buying a share which you follow the management team of the company, fund manager, the product, brand name and reputation of the company & other factors. However, coins information are more difficult and more tricks than the share market. Dealers are more tricky than other trade as my experience told me. However, there always a trustful dealers which not all are bad. Puppets of dealers are everywhere either is remunerated or not. Haters are everywhere to give false information and half truth information as I pointed out. Someone might make used by dealer BUT not aware. On top of it, flippers and dump and bump person are hyping and bumping in the market to affect your decision  making processes more tough. 

=>  Buy what you like within your financial means and not by credit.

=> Numic is a collection and art which is not easy liquidate as bullion coin. You need to find a right person and platform to buy, trade and sell. Example, same coin sell in ebay BUT one sold at 300 BUT another person sell same item at 100 ONLY. WHY !!!! no customer bases, not trustful, no reputation, wrong key words title in ebay listing, urgent sell, wrong timing and etc.

=> you will forever not get the best deal in the market even you are full of experiences. Therefore, not feel the pain of not getting the best deal out of town haha. I face this issue all times. If the price gap is not significant in term of dollar which you always can get it back so not give up. Endurance is necessary for any collection. He/she might offer you a better deal to cover the price gap in next deal if you are dealing with same dealer who you trusted (i.e he also cannot ensure he/she get the lowest cost in the market that the item sold you higher price than others, bullion coins also with price gap not even mention numic).

=>  NOT over-committed yourself and do firesales as when need money. ( numic need to actively manage and financially strong with long term holding power as comparing to bullion coins)

The above are not all BUT part of it. Other factors need to consider too. Hope this will help in your collection journey. 

 
www.numicconnection.com Here our webpage for all numic & other collectible items.

I am not affiliated to chinessemedals.com and Barsenault since May 2017. You will notice a soap opera and drama are happening.

email andrewlee10@hotmail.com for forum member application. Non-member unable view photo

pandamonium

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Re: Classical Garden Series
« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2019, 05:36:57 AM »
From what i read there is deception w/ mostly new issue, low mint medals or NILM.      That is why i always post about early issue low mint medals.    There are no restrikes w/ many early issue.    Go heavy on early issue and light on NILM.....
Lets see what Andrew posts....

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Re: Classical Garden Series
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2019, 04:23:17 PM »
Are you saying that (some, most) ebay sellers of classical garden series medals are intentionally deceiving buyers in the US, knowing that US buyers do not generally know the exact situation in China?

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Re: Classical Garden Series
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2019, 08:56:25 AM »
Why westerners are not aware of the news of dumping price and dumping group since 2017 till now of classical garden series?

Simple :-
=> active promoters of the series smell the fish and went silent to avoid bad reputation in english forum by not telling the full information happen in China and hopefully none will expose them in english forum because majority of english forum members do not read mandarin and access no/lack of information from china at all.
=> even some read, speak and write mandarin AND access to information BUT they do not post it and speak up to avoid offend others (OLD BOY CLUB concept).
=> None of any chinese ebay sellers sell the item cheap in ebay even it is so low in china market which flooded in year 2018. Westerners will take ebay as market price. Thus no truth information been show up. Also a common sense which china dealers will not purchase a lot of it and lower down the price to create fear in market. Some of their loyal customers might also questioning them if they sell much lower price than their customers purchase at peak price. Their customer loss significant % in term of total value. This create them trouble. On top of it, since the series real westerner collector is not significant and collectors who following the series have purchased. Thus, not a lot of  new customers will likely to purchase which will jam dealers cashflow if they buy a lot of it to sell at low price. This logic and common sense which make information not flow to western collectors ears and eyes.

China NGC 69 around 90 USD add ebay fee, paypal and shipping from China to USA & Europe which ended up with 110 USD. As you can check ebay which all chinese ebay seller sell the classical garden silver (year 2010-2016) NGC 69 ranging from 160 to 285 which average at USD180-200.

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l1313&_nkw=classical+garden+medal+NGC+silver&_sacat=0&LH_TitleDesc=0&_osacat=0&_odkw=classical+garden+medal&LH_ItemCondition=10&rt=nc
 

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Re: Classical Garden Series
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2019, 03:46:12 AM »
There another whole bunch of early year 2010 classical garden sold in 2018 around usd 58 omp and 90 usd ngc. This the evidents showing my above statements are correct with evident than just talk only. Few of the puppets worry I am exposing them more and more. They has no balls to update the real situation in English forum and they jolly well known the situation. They talk about transparency which apply to others people and items they against of it. What they say is not apply to themselves at all. Never tell the full truth to market and make use of full information access to their own advantages and against others. What a complicated group of people !!!

As I cited in ccf badon forum which one of the so call well known members of the other English forum objectively translate a mandarin article of China forum in wrong way. The article quoted the 2000 small d panda coin as fantasy coin which he/she translate it as fake coin. This has lead to huge discussion and price of the coin been dropped due to the fear of fake coin. In fact, many incident that some western mint staff does naughty and mint few fantasy coins without approval of the mint. Those coins do become key coin and fetch a much much more higher than the normal coin. This 2000 small d compare to 2000 normal still far below priced as compared to the western fantasy coin example.

Think twice the reason they keep certain information and tell half truth. Worst one of them objectively translate a china article wrongly to create fear and lead to price drop that likely to benefit of their buying agenda Secretly.



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Re: Classical Garden Series
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2019, 10:41:35 PM »
Here the photo which transaction sold in 2018 at RMB

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Re: Classical Garden Series
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2019, 08:15:41 PM »
I have exposed the fake news of classical garden group in Coin Compendium Forum (CCF) months ago. Few prominent English forums members have actively promoting the series and declare not financially related to the sponsor which is not fully truth. This series was very well done initially by setting up a scheme of activities and news to attract attentions in china and western countries. They claim to have more than 1000 followers in the chat group in China and long Q awaiting to buy it. Imply the demand is more than supply which likely lead to high appreciation and huge investment value. The price has went steady up in both eastern and western countries.

The initial mintage of silver version is 1000 -1500 for first 3 issues if I am not wrong. However this has been drop more than after in later issue. The mintage will not reduce so significantly year by year if the series is so well known with more than 1000 followers in china alone and not even includes in other Asia and western countries.

Why they are able to stable and survive for first few issue of the series? Below is my assumption and deduction which might not be fully truth
=> Hyping by local (China) and westerner puppet set up by the sponsor group to create fake demand and price
=> Each sponsors took a huge quantity and disburse to wholesellers and resellers to mark up the price and reduce the sponsor group risks of holding too much stock. Each tier of the value chain vendors like sponsor, wholesellers, resellers and secondary market sellers have mark up certain margin so the price go up steady. Each sponsors, wholesellers and resellers will keep certain amount of stock to gain better profit after the market go up so the price will not collapse even there is not a lot real collectors buy it. It is just like MLM scheme.
=> Sponsors push the risk to Mint by collaboration due to profit sharing or undertable money. This means the mints keep a lot stock with government money not sponsors money so they have no stress of dumping the stock to market which become supply more than demand that will affect the pricing
=> the planned mintage were not fully minted which is unknown to the market which create tight supply and high demand.

After a number of years which the mint get audited and forces sponsors to withdraw the balance minted items else will dump to market. This happen in late 2016 if I am not wrong. Xi crud corruption and many official mints been check. The sponsors bought the item back from Mint which create financial stress. They get someone other to buy it at big quantity to offload the risks and cash out. in 2018 the market flood with stock after the second tier buyers who buy over the big quantity of stock are unable to sell the ietm at all and cannot stand the cashflow trap. They dump to China market and one 2 oz omp cost around 60USD in China without shipping.

As the western puppet of the sponsor smell the blood and went almost totally silent in early 2017 about this series to maintain their reputation. None talk about this because they rub each other back all times.

Even you get the silver 2 oz at USD60 BUT ebay still selling around USD100 so many westerners yet to know the happening because those know it rub each other back and do not disclose those prominent English forums members behaviours.

I disclose it privately to few western collectors and one decide to sell the whole series at .99 bidding in ebay NGC PF70 which fetch a very bad price. He loss big % of money of total purchase price BUT he decide to cut the loss.

Buying non fiat coins like buying shares which you must follow the key management of the company and the fund manager. For non fiat coin which sponsor and the mint are the key. I has mention this numerous times in few english forums.

I did collect this series and have 2 set of NGC. Few of the early items are very impressive and nice. However, the scheme and actions of the sponsor which make me keep away from it at later years because I know the price will down which I can buy it later part to complete my side.

It is not harm to buy at cheap as art items by appreciating it instead consider it as pure investment. The price of 60USD in china which some might part away and sell at 80-90 USD.   

REMEMBER do you homeworks and research seriously as when purchase a big value items. If not sure monitor the trend for some longer time before decision to obtain a good bargain. Always buy item you like and bear in mind of numic is not easy liquidate item like bullion. If you intend to flip a coin which need fast BUT flipping is not recommended as a collector. You need financially sound to hold long term instead of 2 -3 years for any fiat and non fiat coins with non flipping nature. 

Below are one of the garden series which plenty available for sell in China. The photo are all sold transaction with RMB at exchange rate of 6.9 RMB : 1 USD. I am not the person by just talking without showing you the real happening. However, I am still a sellers and sponsors of few series of non fiat coins(I will sponsor fiat coin soon) so I might have some mix views and bias.

 

       

   


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Re: Classical Garden Series
« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2019, 05:57:10 AM »
The majority of collectors, especially those w/ experience are against new issue, low mint medals.         Some have seen price drops after purchasing the Garden Series...
I believe the argument that there is a collector base for new issue, low mint medals like this series.     It makes sense that new collectors will want the highly detailed designs of new issue over the early years.      It would not take many collectors for this series to see demand/price increases.      However, in the long run the largest demand/price increases will be the early issue, highest grade.   Buy what you like including this series but also look at owning early issue.    Gold/silver are breaking out and i see more sales on ebay w/ higher prices so time is running out.....

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Classical Garden Series
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2019, 08:18:35 PM »
I'm wondering what people think of the prospects of the Classical Garden Series.  Do collectors believe the series will increase its appeal?

 

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