Author Topic: NANJING MINT PANDA SERIES DISCUSSION AND INFORMATION  (Read 2142 times)

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Re: NANJING MINT PANDA SERIES DISCUSSION AND INFORMATION
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2019, 09:52:46 PM »
Few person asking me the next issue date of Nanjing Panda 2019. In fact, the designing concept and the engraving has started in October 2018.


I expect which will be done after Chinese Lunar pig year for the engraving. It might be earlier or later which is hard to say at this moment.


Both sides of the design will changes.
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Re: NANJING MINT PANDA SERIES DISCUSSION AND INFORMATION
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2019, 09:49:34 PM »
SOLD summary
Bimet 2 versions 23 set left for sale.
Antique Bimet 2 versions 3 set left for sell
Antique brass enamel 8 piece left for sell
silver 6 pieces left for sell
Antique silver 22 pieces left for sell
Antique silver enamel 1 piece left for sell.


Grading result is better than temple of heaven panda 1 & 2.
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Re: NANJING MINT PANDA SERIES DISCUSSION AND INFORMATION
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2019, 09:37:45 PM »
Silver .999 is much softer than copper and brass so no minting die has broken like minting the non -precious metals.









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Re: NANJING MINT PANDA SERIES DISCUSSION AND INFORMATION
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2019, 09:34:59 PM »
12 minting dies broken for the minting the damn 5 varieties of the non precious metals non fiat coin with total mintage of around 400 inclusive of test items.


I did found a varieties among them. However, it is not significant differ at all. Those are evidence of broken minting dies and new dies been made.

The coin is at China which not likely for me to fly to china to examine all coins to document down the varieties due to changing of minting dies. Costs have been high of the broken minting dies which every single cents is saving. The high % of pre order and fast shipment to avoid crash with Chinese New years which give us no time to examine the number of varieties too.


Some have sent to NGC for grading. I will also grade some PCGS with special label and Cheng Choa signature.


Some of you have received the items which some of you need to wait a while due to the second batch antique and enamel still in minting process.


you will realise both obverse and reverse high relief are equally high instead of one lower than the others. This also another break through of the series. However, it will not to mint both side high relief since the 12 broken minting dies is too costly.


Imagine say one minting dies cost 5,500 X 12 which is 66,000. This is excluding the working and non broken minting die of min 6 pieces which cost another 33,000. Regardless of metals, boxes, coa, designing fee, labour of minting, wastage and reject stock, shipping fee and all others which the average cost per pieces is 99,000 / 400 = 247.50 per pieces. You can compare it with the overall selling price. This is the simple and direct reason which it will not to mint both side high relief in near future except able to get it right. This is the cost of challenging the technology. A number of person just saying easily which they can easily sponsoring and minting the non fiat coin. Are they able to do the same items with the quality and standard? I can sponsoring some non fiat coins at damn low selling price BUT no way with same standard and on bar with those pioneer items of Nanjing Mint which always challenge the old ways and technologies. On top of it, do they have tight relationship with mint? Some sponsors have been in the market more than 10 years and mint their items in Nanjing Mint too. However, They are able to do the same items like us? It is not as easy as thought. COST, relationship and many aspects are not as easy as thought and said. The breakthrough of my sponsoring items are:

   
Trimetallic series traditional culture Dragon and phoenix and swan and Mandarin duck which no glue for minting that follow by some western mints to replicate the success.

1. Temple of heaven panda 1 (TOH 1) it is full reverse proof with specially treatment of the bamboo forest background instead of just did a reversal proof and the special treatment of the panda fur by segment engraving and so on.

2. Temple of heaven panda 2 (TOH 2) details engraving of the temple of heaven, mirror proof treatment by engraving a line surrounding the temple of heaven to give a eye illusion of higher high relief and deeper curve of the panda observe of the coin which give better high relief which the cap is not fully cover vs TOH 1. Some hidden counterfeit features on the silver and gold version which is not the right time to disclosure.

3. Nanjing panda series - 2018 Greatwall which features been stated in this thread.       


Some ask the truth of the 180% degree rotation as counterfeit measurement. It is very old measurement in 80% which used in panda expo and classical garden series too. It is not as easy as though by just rotate and mint it. The minting machine is damn big and heavy which you need to adjust it to hold the minting die before striking. The alignment of it take time especially you need to strike and cold it down for many times to form the high relief and change different minting dies in the whole minting process. It is not a low relief coins and 40 mm thick planchent half piefort which request less striking in minting high relief coin. This also the reason which TOH 1 grading result is lower. However which has been solve in TOH 2. This also a cost for challenging the breakthrough.   

Most of my series buyers are collectors and investors for long term NOT FLIPPERS. Therefore, price stability is there and not many flippers will list for secondary market like others.
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Re: NANJING MINT PANDA SERIES DISCUSSION AND INFORMATION
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2019, 09:31:13 PM »
300 plus minted so far and 6 minting dies broken. It will ship batch by batch. the balance will mint after new minting dies been done.

It might have varieties exists or not by using different minting die?

Version 1 sample photo. The actual should be better.

Bitmet 1






Bimet 2






Bimt 2 AF




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Re: NANJING MINT PANDA SERIES DISCUSSION AND INFORMATION
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2019, 09:23:34 PM »
The shipment will delay a bit due minting dies broken after minting few pieces of the non fiat coin.

The technical challenge and technology advancement which is not beatable for others at all. The collaboration with the R & D team with us not others which give us the first hand technology BUT also problem like few minting dies broken down. However Kudo and credit to Nanjing Mint to honor us to work closely with the R & D team and selling this Nanjing Mint Cheng Choa flagship panda non fiat coin 2018.

Here the few items done after the dies broken.








I have keep all these few in my collection and sell to good customers.

Well expect varieties since so many minting dies broken.

The high relief level near the rim of the Greatwall is too high which lead several minting die been broken as showed in the photo.

3 sets of minting die been broken and just to mint 6 pieces of the above brass non-fiat coin. The planchet has become thinner than normal during the high level few round of cleaning, polishing and striking before striking the details of the non fiat coin. Thus to strike a fine details with high relief at rim corner which must in higher temperatures and pressure level than normal process. This one of the reason of the minting dies broken due to unable to stand the increase pressure and temperature level requirements. On top of it, the close gap between the 2 panda and the plum trees details and detail design of ground which also cause a lot new technical requirement to prevent the minting dies broken. A small effects and things which seems not noticeable and important but lead to 3 minting dies been broken. All those are accidental costs in order to achieve the necessary and small improvement. This is another peak and challenges been executed by us.

Here one of the sample of antique brass with partial green enameled on ground to representing spring season. Many enamel products and brand been tested in Temple of heaven 1 & 2 in order to achieve the effects. It need to adjust the temperatures and so on instead of just do it as easy as said.

This non fiat coin will start pre-order in one or 2 days in webpage. CCF members get small discount by register as member here and email me.

Mintage 69 which 50 pieces allocates to me and 19 to mints.






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Re: NANJING MINT PANDA SERIES DISCUSSION AND INFORMATION
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2019, 09:05:21 PM »
Quote from: badon on 2017 Dec 11, 04:54:06 PM
I'm not sure what the current practices are at the Nanjing Mint, which might be totally different, but at the Shanghai Mint the dies were usually stored, sometimes not stored well (damaged with rust etc over the years), but they were often destroyed in scrap metal recycling bins without keeping any records of their destruction.

Dies are the only thing that separates the mint from counterfeiters, so standard practice in many mints is to preserve original coins struck from each die, and (sometimes) preserve the actual dies too. Then if any good counterfeits appeared, they could be compared to the original coins and dies. The Shanghai Mint puts coin samples in their museum. The USA mints and other major world mints put their coin samples in the "mint cabinet", which is basically a government-owned coin collection (housed at the Smithsonian numismatic collection) that is intended to be a complete collection of all coin types the mint has made, including non-fiat coins.

What the Shanghai Mint always did consistently was to make restrikes different from the originals. Almost always the restrikes were dramatically different, so there is no way to confuse restrikes with originals. For example, restrikes would be minted with a completely different reverse, or with a completely different metal, or with frosted and mirror surfaces reversed. 1984 and 1990 silver goldfish are good examples of different reverses.

In a few cases the China mint's restrikes were not deliberately made to be easy to identify, due to special contractual obligations with the German company MDM. After 2004, due to collector and dealer complaints, they made a policy change that forbade identical restrikes, and they broke the contract agreement and vowed never to allow it to happen again. I collect the historical figures restrikes, especially the 1989 Kublai Khan.

As far as I know, there have been no confusing restrikes minted since 2004 at the Shanghai Mint. Sometimes mint employees break the rules, but when they do they tend to not make something that has already been minted. Rogue employees prefer to make something new and obviously different that is very rare, like the 5 known specimens of the 1913 liberty head nickel.

There have been a few special restrikes minted for specific coins, as requested by important dealers or collectors. I can think of large size unicorns as an example. Those have such low mintages, and the origins of those coins are easily traced, so just like with Western restrikes, more often than not the restrikes are worth more than the originals if they can be identified. Another good example of a famously valuable restrike are the USA 1804 silver dollars that were actually minted in the 1830's.

If you can, I highly recommend chasing after restrikes before all of these details become more widely known and valued higher. Right now, most people fear restrikes as a dilution of the rarity by increasing the mintage. Nearly always that fear never becomes reality, because the restrikes are identified and valued higher than originals. I am able to identify the historical figures restrikes because unintentional differences are easy to see when you compare originals and restrikes side-by-side. Dies wear with each strike, and the final coins change with the passage of time even when the dies are pristine and stored properly, because planchets, minting presses, and press operators change. The longer the time is between originals and restrikes, the more likely it is you will be able to easily see a difference.

If you're feeling ambitious, look around for the 1989 Kublai Khan original and restrike coins. Many differences are easy to spot even in photos.

We will have to wait for Andy's information about how the Nanjing Mint handles their dies. I suspect it is no different, except the Nanjing Mint doesn't sell enough coins to bother with restrikes, since their primary business is mass-production of paper money.



Good to know Shanghai mint practice.


Nanjing Mint mass production of paper money, develop printing machine and counterfeit technology. Those are the main businesses. Minting fiat circulating coin and non fiat coin has been developed in last 20 years. This the reasons they work on Research and development with us closely than others. It is a young mint for fiat and non fiat coin as compare to other china official mint with long history in minting coins.


There are few counterfeit measurement in TOH2 which I do not and cannot disclose in public. The 45 mm TOH 2 is using old counterfeit technology. the Gold and silver TOH 2 is using latest developed counterfeit technology by them.




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Re: NANJING MINT PANDA SERIES DISCUSSION AND INFORMATION
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2019, 09:03:41 PM »
QUESTION from Collectors in other forum


« Reply #7 on: 2017 Dec 11, 04:45:05 PM »
Quote from: ZROGST on 2017 Dec 11, 09:23:24 AM
Out of curiosity Andrew, what happens to the dies after the minting is completed in China? Here in the US any official dies are destroyed to resist counterfitting but I wonder if they would be made available to an avid collector in China or if they are stored by the Mint to be potentially used for restrikes?


I am not sure of the minting dies for fiat coin. As the minting dies for non fiat coin for Nanjing and Shenyang mint are stored and destroy after xx years if I am not wrong.


As restrike issue which can categories into 2 types.

First, it can restrike if it has not fully minted the items. First Example planned or maximum mintage is 499 but mint 300. So the mint possible to strike the balance till planned mintage. However, mint must need to do cleaning and repair of the minting dies if sit there for too Long. Generally Shenyang and Nanjing mint will not restrike after 3 years for small quantity even it is not fully minted. It might be exceptional if you are well connected and willing to part away a fortune. Second example , mintage 299 first strike is 260. Generally 39 balance can be striking later. However mint will not willing to do it.

Second , restrike a similar design by building new minting dies instead of old one. Example is the gold fish 1984 and 1990.
However , the above cases are my knowledge of Shenyang and Nanjing mint current practices which can change over times and not reflect the older day. I had no knowledge of Shenzhen guaboa and Shanghai mint. As private mint which restrike anythings can be happen. Xi Shi silver is the typical example. Majority of xi Shi were restriking recent years if I am not wrong. This also the different of government and private commercial oriented company.

I did request the plaster and clay model from Shenyang mint but fail. As Nanjing mint rarely used clay/plaster model at all for last 5 years.  If you see it which I give no further comment on it. You can make your own judgement. I would not say more on it.
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Re: NANJING MINT PANDA SERIES DISCUSSION AND INFORMATION
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2019, 09:02:59 PM »
=> low mintage with numerous varieties to choose as your preference.

        4 varieties

        1. Bimet 1- Obversepanda Brass, Reverse : Copper Greatwall 99 mintage
        2. Bimet 2- Obverse panda Copper, Reverse : BrassGreatwall rotation 99 mintage
        3. Antique Bimet 1- Obverse panda Brass, Reverse : Copper Greatwall 64 mintage
        4. Antique Bimet 2- Obverse panda Copper, Reverse : Brass Greatwall rotation 65 Mintage
   
Bimet 1 & 2 10-15% sold in China. 60% sold overseas of last 2 weeks. Antique Bimt 2 & 2 15% sold in China. 70% sold overseas of last 2 weeks of pre sell.

Here the Minting dies










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NANJING MINT PANDA SERIES DISCUSSION AND INFORMATION
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2019, 08:57:11 PM »
Cheng Chao who is Nanjing Mint top designers that honor by China Government as 5 years panda bullion coin designer (2010, 2012, 2013, 2017 & 2018) as showed in the photo.


He has been given the nick name of China panda king designer among the local community of his outstanding achievements and contribution to the panda coins. Thus, Nanjing Mint will mint a new panda non fiat coin series in order to commemorate his achievements and contributions to China panda coins.











=> This new panda series is the flagship of non-fiat panda coin series of Nanjing Mint designs by Cheng Chao and sculptures by Feng Jie. This panda non fiat coin has many outstanding features as following:-


The eyebrows and panda fur are using the same patented technique as 2018 panda fiat coin;








=> As commemorative item from Nanjing Mints to the top panda coin designer Cheng Chao;
=>This is the flagship panda of Nanjing which accentuates the most advanced coining technologies and techniques of today to bring out the high relief details and effects with special mirror & sand blasting on the surface of the non-fiat coin;






2 varieties of the items are using the 1983, 84 & 85 panda fiat coin counterfeit measurement with 180 degree rotation of the reverse of the coin.














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